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Manchin and Sinema make their choice: Defend the filibuster or democracy

Manchin and Sinema make their choice: Defend the filibuster or democracy

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boojumist

Manchin and Sinema are pro-corporatacracy and anti-democracy.


WFjericho

Multiple journalists and outlets have been, for months, consistently reporting that there are several Dems who won’t back abolishing the filibuster, they simply allow Manchin/Sinema to take the blame. For some reason it’s still being framed as only those two blocking any progress on this


deebeedubbs

Much like McConnell for the Republicans, Manchin and Sinema are now the fall people for the Democrats. The bill is ultimately a threat to the leaderships of both parties and many of the structures that support them. It's heartbreaking how little chance this had in the first place.


Justyn9302

Its is a threat to Republicans right now. It is an obstructionist tool and serves no other purpose, much like the senate itself.


TavisNamara

How many of them would instantly cave in when they realize their power is actually at risk instead of being able to hide behind the others? I'd wager most of them. So, let's say there's ten douchebags getting in the way (not counting Manchin and Sinema). Eight cave to pressure. 54 would be all that's needed to destroy the filibuster and finally make progress, because the 8 aren't going to actually put themselves in the spotlight like the rest.


Bisbee_Steve

Here's the hard thing with this subject: get rid of the filibuster and stuff can actually get done. Get rid of it, and when your party is no longer in power, you can't take advantage of it. I'm for Democracy. Majority vote wins. And I'm tired of Turtle Neck Mitch McConnell. As a side note, we need term limits for all of congress.


heywhathuh

Here’s the easy thing with this subject: there’s no guarantee that republicans won’t get rid of it even if we don’t, and we know they’ll rig elections against us if we don’t so….. easy choice, get rid of it.


illit3

>As a side note, we need term limits for all of congress. If you think private interests are overrepresented now, just wait until these senators *know* when they're going to be out of work but still need to pay their mortgage.


TummyDrums

Along with adding term limits, we need to abolish Citizens United, then enact a law preventing former congress members from being employed by former or current donors. Its probably not fool proof, but I'm sure actual lawyers can come up with something more bulletproof than that. It's not that we can't stop all of this from happening, its that the people with the power to stop it don't want to.


err_coffee_not_found

Good thing a bill like that exists/existed. Shame that Sinema and Manchin won’t kill the filibuster to pass it (to say nothing of Manchin trying to appease his puppet-masters and his “friends” in the Republican Party by trying to neuter it to be more “bi-partisan”).


coolcool23

Popular. Legislation. Wins. Votes. The filibuster is a contributing factor to our never ending see-saw of political parties. It gives republicans a built in excuse to not govern and prevents democrats from doing so. Everyone complains "the two sides are the same, do-nothing democrats, tax-break republicans - get a new idea!" and then apathy sets in, and heavy gerrymandering plus a built in advantage in the senate and EC gives republicans a narrow victory again. And sometimes, Donald Trump is elected president. In a multiparty democracy the filibuster may fight partisanism. But in a two party democracy there is always necessarily a sizable minority. One that right now realizes it doesn't have to do anything other than demonize the other side for things they never get done, while never accomplishing anything good for itself. It's useless. And republicans are proving it right now by **literally telling the other side they will not work with them on anything**. What are the ramifications of this? nothing. Republican voters see them as "fighting the good fight" against an opponent that never has the opportunity to prove how evil it **isn't**. It's insanity that people defend this anymore.


CornBreadW4rrior

But then the fight is over the issues. Any 50 votes can change the law would mean that the law would change more often. How many times have the American people voted for change?


BrokenArrows95

That's a great thing for democrats. Their legislation is popular. The more popular things pass, the more people vote for you. Right now they are the "Do nothing Democrats".


SignificanceProud790

And for the Supreme Court


TavisNamara

I AM SO TIRED OF THE FUCKING TERM LIMITS BULLSHIT. One of the many many many issues currently is lawmakers who are inexperienced just being handed legislation by lobbying groups and deciding to go with it. They either haven't had the chance or haven't given enough of a fuck to learn the intricacies of politics, negotiation, bill writing, and more. Did you know that being a congressman is more than just making promises? There's a lot of interpersonal skills, there's a lot of dealing with constituents, there's a lot of work on the legal intricacies of bills, and there's a lot of details that only a few people in each state know a single damned thing about because they're the ones who've done it before. It's also extremely easy in our current system for a bunch of rich bastards to throw a couple mil into a campaign for Jimmy the Toadie, loyal stooge, and it's a lot easier to replace Jimmy the Toadie than it is to replace John, the upstanding grassroots- whoops, he's out of terms, can't run him anymore and we didn't find anyone who captured the same spirit so now we get Jimmy the Toadie 2: Electric Boogaloo Boy, who will get a cushy "job" "managing" several people at megacorp 4 once his terms are up. That's not to say we shouldn't restrict the maximum age, which might have a better effect. Don't want to push it too low, but a maximum age. The issue there being that a limit of, say... 75? Disqualifies Biden and Bernie... But not Trump. Does get rid of McConnell though, so that's nice. We should probably have minimum education too, or some kind of combined education/experience factor. And as for the suggestion of judges having terms... Yeah, lifetime appointments are not a thing we should really have, especially when the bad guys are gonna ram inexperienced 20 year olds in there just so they have control for longer (hasn't happened yet, but I wouldn't be surprised). But back to the point, the problem is not term limits. The problem is money. There are others, but that's the big one. Very rich people and corporations can spend absurd amounts through shady bullshit to prop up whoever the fuck they please. That's not good. That's the core of the problem. Term limits won't change that. In fact, they'll only make it worse.


onomatodingdong

Re: term limits What good are they if the staffers are still there, looking for new ideologues. They're recycled as much as lobbyists, aren't they? Seems voting rights would do more to flush out the incumbent effect


drdrillaz

Ok. Let’s say they get rid of the filibuster. The Democrats push through all the items they want. Infrastructure. Green New Deal. Tax changes. Healthcare. Then in 2024 the GOP regains power. Now you repeal the Green New Deal. More tax changes. Overturn healthcare reform. It will be an absolute mess. And the markets will react negatively. The economy is hurt. Our government works because of stability. Having constant change is bad


Busy-Dig8619

Having no functional government is far worse


drdrillaz

We have a functional government. You and the progressives just want a more progressive government. Some of us prefer less government


Busy-Dig8619

Bullshit. You can whine about small government after Republicans stop trying to undermine democracy


RayMC8

Then stop telling women what they can do with their bodies.


drdrillaz

I haven’t told anyone what to do with their bodies. I could care less. Smoke pot. Have an abortion. Have gay sex. It’s none of my business. So we agree. You want less government too. One that doesn’t tell you how to live your life. But it sounds like you want a government that takes more of my hard-earned money and tells me what to do with it


ParannoyedMandroid

Damn, you must be making $500K a year to be butthurt about hIgHeR tAxEs


drdrillaz

Yup


_-Seamus-McNasty-_

You're OK with your "hard-earned money" being spent enforcing racist laws and undermining freely elected governments rather than being spent ensuring the welfare of US citizens?


Johnvanjim

True, although I'd argue that having no change is probably worse. At least you get to see what comes from the changes that you're hoping for..


hansmartin_

I would like to see if the GOP would overturn Obamacare, universal background checks or any other popular laws. It’s easier to have one senator block it than actually vote to repeal it once it is in place.


MadDragonReborn

I disagree. It is difficult to roll back truly beneficial laws after people have had a chance to enjoy the results. Pass legislation that helps the average voter and let the GOP anger the electorate by trying to take it away.


RayMC8

It's stagnant and corrupt but stable...not my wish as a taxpayer.


MoreCazador

Your assumption there is Republicans would regain power after popular policies by democrats get passed. They could hold and even expand their majority as long as they continued to pass meaningful legislation


Kageyblahblahblah

They choose $$$$


rounder55

At this point they are guilty in contributing to the collapse of our country through a desire to be not just bystanders but accomplices


NJ35-71SONS

How on earth is that kooky woman a Senator ?


koimeiji

She ran as a progressive former Green party senator that'd support the things we need to save the country. Then she stopped caring after election because she's a liar.


GapMindless

No she didn’t. She for senate ran as a moderate.


jhpianist

She won’t be one for long. Democrats like me hate turncoats. I’ll never vote for that liar again.


MrOtsKrad

/me looks around at all the kooks in the Senate I think it's a prerequisite


Ezl

Man, I had hopes she would be a “kooky woman”. Turns out she’s just a typical politician.


IIlIllIIIllII

The world is watching as “the land of the free” decide whether to defend democracy or give in to minority rule.


EVILB0NG

Not that it's any comfort, but if it wasn't Manchin and Sinema it'd be two other conservative Democrats.


gingiberiblue

Manchin just broke. Announced he'll back ending the filibuster to force debate on voting rights.


Jglash1

Source?


Iamien

it's already made.


703_Clark

yeah that went exactly as expected


SpiritBadger

They both have been bought. They keep making the same face. That expression of guilt is obvious.


artful_todger_502

The republicans are going to get rid of it anyway ... Its sheer idiocy not not understand that. Why are we letting Mitch McConnell shut the government down again, even as the minority party? This is almost 20 years of McConnell rule. Any argument about how bad our system is, can be summed up by that simple fact.


To_me_my_board

I'm not a big fan of the filibuster as it is currently constructed. That said, the Dems have to be careful what they wish for. If the filibuster wasn't in place during the Trump administration, the damage they did would have been even more severe and long-lasting. I can't even begin to imagine the laws that they would shove down people's throats if there was no filibuster.


tga3211

Republicans don't have majority support. Getting rid of the filibuster and passing H.R. 1 would deny a majority in congress and the white house unless they pulled a 180 and stopped being fascists. As an example of the effect of the policies republicans have implemented, democrats hold ~50% of the seats in the house. For them to gain 2 seats next election, they would need 60% of the vote nationally. Pretending like nuking the filibuster to make sure our vote counts will backfire on us is just wrong. There is no way republicans win popular votes (and specifically the house of representative's) ever again if there's an even playing field.


To_me_my_board

They don't have a majority now, but don't doubt they won't have it in future.


tga3211

If they upend the system as they're currently doing, yes, they will have a majority likely next election. That's why democrats absolutely *have* to pass H.R. 1, if they don't then republicans will take over the senate, house, and most likeley white house by 2024-28 and then get rid of the filibuster so they can do whatever they want next round. There is still 0 possibility the current republican party would be able to secure the house of representatives if it is passed. Regardless of whether they gain the white house or senate any legislative priority would be denied in that situation and the US could at least put fascism on hold for a few decades. That is the bottom line when it comes to senators Manchin and Sinema in my opinion, their choice regarding the filibuster will either herald the end of American democracy or revitalize it.


To_me_my_board

I think you have far more confidence in a voting public that put a majority GOP in congress, the senate, and the White House just 5 years ago. As to holding off fascism... well... America needs to look at scaling back fascism, not holding it off. It is here and has been here for a long time. America is so far right of center that the 'leftist' party is the one who ramped up the industrial prison system. America has 5% of the world's population and 22% of it's prison population, and even though Black men in America make up 0.5% of the world's population, America has them sitting at 10% of the world's prison population. There are literally police in the street killing people. America has just gotten so used to it that they see it as normal. In addition to that, over 40% of Americans support a fascist state and another 20% are on the fence.


MiasmaFate

Fuck both of them. Taking this delicate time in our democracy to be your time to “shine” is fucking disgusting. I hope the bribes rots in their pocket.


sedatedlife

They made their choice killing Bidens agenda and supporting Republicans attack on democracy. When Biden runs in 2024 the only thing he will have to show is is the covid relief package. So get ready for president Trump or Desantis.


saskin57

Don’t need to kill the filibuster, just need to reform it. It’s not a Boolean exercise.


RayMC8

Let's face it...our gov't is corrupt. They do not do what the majority wants.


TavisNamara

Yes, the entire republican party is corrupt, and some of the democrats. Just trying to make it clear who's at fault here.