T O P

Fastest cars in F1 History

Fastest cars in F1 History

alphonsocastro

watching the W11 onboard as it railed corners through Spa, Hungary…What a machine


VIFASIS

That Hungary lap is out of this world. Loved hearing PdR reaction to the almost flat T11 I think it was. No car has ever gotten close to doing that.


[deleted]

[удалено]


vivvysaur21

Isn't that just down to fuel weight differences though? I'd reckon both cars would lap at pretty similar pace with relatively similar amounts of fuel.


PepeIsADeadMeme

They also just pushed more during races because they could use way more engines than now in a season.


Hinyaldee

With equal amounts of fuel, slick tyres for both and both engines turned to the maximum, I still think the W11 would win thanks to its outworldly cornering speed


do_you_even_cricket

Engine is the biggest thing. Without limits they could eek a significant amount of additional power especially at the top end of the rev range from these engines


Doogleyboogley

More than the additional cornering they could achieve without aero limits? I don’t know, but for lap time with today’s engine and no aero limits I think would beat today’s aero with no engine limits. Sorry thats confusing lol


do_you_even_cricket

Yeah unlimited aero would probably be insane but I’m assuming in this hypothetical scenario all parts stay the same. So they’d still be the same engines but without having to tune the engines down for reliability due to the 3 engine limit per season


shokzz

It definitely would.


JulesV713

Imagine putting slicks on it


SpectacularNelson

Watching Hamilton’s delta to Norris going down after ricciardo pitted was hype & big reason he was able to take advantage of conditions


pulianshi

That was last week, they're talking about last year's car


mg1803

The 2020 Mercedes with the black livery will become one of the most iconic cars in f1


bwoahconstricter

Seeing the broadcast of it qualify in Belgium and realizing how few people were able to witness it haul ass in real life, was definitely a moment for me. Sector 2 was crazy from the on-boards.


willmcavoy

It's honestly my favorite car of all time already which is crazy to think given the amazing cars of the past. It's an absolute crime against racing fans we weren't able to see it rip through the streets of Singapore.


Avahightime

Street circuits wouldn't fully show the capabilities of the car


arkwewt

I think what made the W11 so good was that it fundamentally could handle anything. It had the best engine, it had the best car medium-high speed corners, and they also worked out the issues in slow speed (which Lewis talked a bit about during the season). That car was insanely quick in almost any situation. I would love to see it rip around Marina Bay one day. So, street circuits might not be able to highlight a cars true capabilities, but I have a feeling that the W11 would have obliterated Lewis' 1:36:015 which he set in 2018 during Q3. A race track is a race track after all - the quickest car driven correctly would inherently have a good design to it. Based on lap times from other circuits, I would say by maybe a second to a second and a half. A I guess we'll never know.


thekhaos

McLaren MP4/4, Williams FW14, Ferrari F2004, Mercedes W10+ Probably the 4 most dominant cars of the modern era. Could include the 2014 Mercedes and F2002 there as well at a push.


VinhoVerde21

The W10 is the 2019 car, the 2020 car was the W11.


wldcordeiro

That would be one hell of a museum exhibit to have each of those cars together.


Key_Refrigerator5985

Not just because of that. It's so far the fastest F1 car in history. And it likely will remain for a while. Plus is could also be Hamilton's last championship winning car (I hope so) which would make this car even more iconic, much like the F2004 with Schumacher's last and 7th championship and how that car remained the fastest until 2017 rule changes.


Wafkak

To be fair the f2004 is also iconic because in the first test it was so fast Ferrari thought there timing devices were broken


Zlatanabingbong2002

Watched Autosport's video about the F2004. That video made me realise how monstrous the F2004 was and made me appreciate Ferrari and Michael's campaign in 2004 even more.


lemimique

Can you give a link to that video please? I'd like to watch it.


McLarenMP4-26

[Here](https://youtu.be/MpDqs9ljSqg).


lemimique

Thank you!


McLarenMP4-26

You're welcome :)


HELLUPUTMETHRU

Honestly had no idea about that. That’s one of those stories that is hilarious in hindsight, but I can imagine when other teams caught wind of it they were a little horrified haha


Wafkak

The best part was that Michael instantly knew there was no timing issue, he just felt the difference that clearly


therealdilbert

at the first test if was something like 2 seconds quicker than the previous car, that must have been very obvious


Jazzinarium

>when other teams caught wind of it they were a little horrified haha *chuckles* "We're in danger"


AtomZaepfchen

the w11 and f2004 are cars from another realm. they are speed. schumi and hamilton are the greatest ever seen.


eirexe

To be entirely fair, the F2004 still smacks whatever the current cars do in race pace, the current cars are the fastest ever over one qualifying lap though.


papa_stalin432

That’s cause refueling was a thing in 2004. Now the cars are loaded with fuel, and by the time they have low fuel their tires are dead


Merengues_1945

Different approaches, but the timings would still be similar if the car was set on the fuel and tyre regs of 2020. Difference is the F2004 was a rocket while the W11 was a monstrous cornering machine.


EbolaNinja

>To be entirely fair, the F2004 still smacks whatever the current cars do in race pace Can I ask how do you know that? Because there are only 3 circuit layouts that were used in both 2004 and 2020 (Hungaroring, Monza, and Nürburgring GP). In the Hungaroring Lewis holds the race lap record, in Monza Barrichello in the F2004 does, and Max holds the race lap record in the Nürburgring and we know for a fact that the W11 is faster than the RB16. That put the W11 as faster at 2/3 of the circuits it and the F2004 both raced. Furthermore, the only circuit the F2004 beat the W11 is Monza which is unique in the sense that it is so power dependent, the rest of the car barely matters (as evidenced by McLaren winning there *on merit*). Also, the F2004 had significantly lower fuel loads due to refuelling being allowed, while the W11 would only have low fuel at the end of the race when the tyres are way past their peak. Based on that, I would expect the W11 to be faster on race pace when adjusting for fuel load and tyre wear in almost all circuits outside of outliers like Monza that only depend on having a powerful engine. Edit: looked into circuits that were used unchanged in 2004 and 2019 for a larger sample size (Melbourne, Monaco, Gilles Villeneuve, Shanghai, Suzuka, and Interlagos). Out of these 6, the F2004 has the race lap record in 2 circuits (Melbourne and Shanghai). On the other 4 the record is held by the W12, W10, or even the W09 (in Interlagos). We know for a fact that the W11 is faster than any of those Mercedes cars, so if they have faster race laps than the F2004 then so would the W11. This actually doesn't change the lead since the W11 still has the faster race lap in ⅔ of circuits both it and the F2004 used, except we don't actually know if it wouldn't be faster in Melbourne and Shanghai since it never raced there.


eirexe

When I say race pace, I mean overall race pace, I wouldn't put it past current f1 cars to be faster over 1 lap, but over a 70 lap race they would get destroyed. Current cars can't keep their race pace up for long because of the high degradation tires and no refuelling.


topclassladandbanter

How do you figure that


GilesCorey12

2004 cars hold a lot of race lap records, albeit that’s mostly due to the ruel fuels


SolomonG

With current tires and a full load of fuel? Not so sure.


eirexe

I was under the impression the comparison was between what each car had during their era. If we are gonna give the 2004 cars the handicap of current tires, then they should also get DRS


[deleted]

[удалено]


callmelampshade

Nah, last years car was the one. That first race in Austria gave me an erection when I looked at it.


MillyStan

They looked absolutely fucking lethal, though admittedly not a Mercedes looking car. I remember Crofty saying something about it resembling the first shot of 'A New Hope' as it tailed a Williams out of the pit lane after I had already hummed the imperial march as they left their garage. My personal favourite looking F1 car of all time compounded by its utter dominance over the grid. Its aura of power was insane. Ruined my freinds first season of the watching the sport but I couldn't control myself whenever it was on the screen. I'm being hyperbolic but I loved it.


Humberto-T

“Incouldn’t control myself whenever it was on the screen”. Please elaborate on that, how did this impact you and your loved ones during those moments? j/k of course


[deleted]

[удалено]


Noakesy97

I’m really split because I thought the black looked badass, and had an amazing cause, but the silver is tradition. I’m intrigued to see if they’ll go for some sort of gradient to keep both colours in the mix


Cpt_Trips84

I understand why they won't, but I wish the teams were allowed to switch between a few different liveries throughout the season


RacingUpsideDown

I think the thing that I like about it having been black for a year or two means that when the FIA **hopefully** introduce my proposal to have teams run "throwback" liveries at the Monaco GP every year (think McLaren's Gulf livery but all the teams doing them every season), Mercedes can now finally do it.


MoreIronOre

That would confuse the shit out of me.


Cantshaktheshok

Don't try to get into Nascar


TheMadPyro

Nobody tell them about 1964


A-le-Couvre

I like it, specially with the silver stars on the engine cover (and the red one for Niki). Matches with the Petronas cyan really well too. For me, the absolute ultimate version of that would be this. There are paints that become translucent when being heated. So imagine a black car, but in warmer climates (or just hot spots on the car), it would turn translucent and show the silver underneath. Not only would this help with cooling in crucial areas, it would also be the ultimate statement regarding racism. Think about it: all skin color is, is pigment in your skin adepting to a warmer climate. How insane would it be if the car did exactly the same!


TheWebbFather

[There's literally nothing wrong with this car.](https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Porn/comments/ju0dx4/2020_turkish_gp_lewis_hamilton_mercedes_4096x2730/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share) One of the best liveries ever, imo


Cantshaktheshok

The red Ineos is the only thing taking away from the car & Hamilton's purple helmet. They did a pretty good job of integrating it but it could have been better without it. It would look unbelievable if it was purple to integrate with Hamilton's helmet design.


[deleted]

[удалено]


TheWebbFather

Because they said they would have the car in its original colours for the new regs?


[deleted]

[удалено]


TheWebbFather

So how does that make the black livery wrong? It was used as a statement against racism so aswell as looking great, it also had a brilliant meaning


[deleted]

[удалено]


SemIdeiaProNick

Blue maybe not so much, but i think Ferrari could get away with a yellow car for a comemorative race since yellow used to be one of their main colours back then.


RacingUpsideDown

Also, boy do I have some news about the 1964 United States Grand Prix, where John Surtees won the WDC in a... [blue Ferrari](https://www.formula1.com/content/fom-website/en/latest/features/2015/10/f1-do-you-remember-when-ferrari-raced-in-blue-in-mexico/_jcr_content/featureContent/pullquote_0/image.img.1920.medium.jpg/1446050924436.jpg)


Fantaboy15

The black fits with the image Mercedes had in 2020 as the single most dominant car on track, like a final boss or something.


peanutbutter1236

Black looks 10x better for real imo


ThisIsPeakBehaviour

The black and blue livery is so iconic


domantas44

In future W11 will be seen the same way we see F2004 and MP4/4 today. One of the best f1 cars ever made no question also the only formula 1 car that introduced dual axis steering.


WhamboyYT

honorable mentions the mclaren mp4


SemIdeiaProNick

The car so dominant it only lost when both cars were out


lando-noris

In Monza first race after Enzo Ferrari passed away


indrmln

On single lap only, I think hybrid era with 2017-2020 aero is unbeatable. For race pace though, I don't really know, because there will be some laps for charging the battery.


Merengues_1945

Shush… I will always have Sakhir 2020 don’t care about ifs and buts


LiaKron

Even as a RBR fan, I’m kinda sad they made the changes to slow down the W11. That thing was a beast, and the nerd inside me would’ve loved to see how they could’ve improved that performance.


kydas94

Yeah that would have been epic.


no2jedi

The saddest bit about the 2020 Merc is that it doesn't exist anymore. They chopped it up for the 2021 car and that is just deeply unfortunate as it truly is the best f1 car Edit: the source of this information is the Mercedes employee James allison. Stop responding with links to Instagram posts and false info that don't come from the horses mouth. We're not the media. Here is the video https://youtu.be/vOBGLAkEQyo And here's merc themselves explaining that they salvaged bits including the correct chassis to make the Silverstone show car but that they are indeed rotating 2020 chassis In 2021 cars


Demiculverin

Is this true? Surely they still have Lewis chassis hanging around


IamBejl

They can still make it… it’s not like they erased all the documentation on building it


no2jedi

Extremely expensive building a F1 car. Why would merc spend millions (in a budget cap era) for a window item


no2jedi

It's not a secret. It was in the videos at the start of the year... https://youtu.be/vOBGLAkEQyo There you go


Demiculverin

Maybe I didn’t explain it clearly: The other poster said the W11 doesn’t exist, saying they took it and chopped it up to make the W12. That is completely false. The W12 is a new chassis. It looks the same, but it was never raced before 2021. It uses designs from the W11 sure, but to my knowledge they didn’t take Lewis car from 2020, remove some parts and called it a day. For proof, here is the W11 in Mercedes AMG HQ https://www.instagram.com/reel/CSFIWFhn3s8/?utm_medium=copy_link Edit: I was wrong about this. The W11 still exists but the 12 was built using parts from some of the chassis of old cars. That’s very interesting me, I would love to see this process.


no2jedi

Right...so they have some body panels. You don't seem to understand what the 2021 car is made from. The chassis is indeed a W11 chassis This is the video actually detailing the car rather than a edited insta post. Pay attention to where the actual merc employee disagrees with your statement. That's why I'm saying this lmao https://youtu.be/vOBGLAkEQyo


Demiculverin

I watched the entire video. Kravitz asks Alison when development of the new car started, and he agreed around August. So again, to your interpretation, they yanked Lewis actual car after the season, gutted it, installed new gear and claimed it was the W12. Is that what you are saying? You are saying that they are racing on a thoroughly used chassis? Mercedes, the richest team in the grid?


no2jedi

My interpretation as per James words are that the w12 is made using the chassis of the W11. As per the regulations too. As per the other teams and their chassis carry over. You DO know the rules coming into this season about using the same chassis to cut costs?


Demiculverin

Dude he’s talking about the design of the chassis, not the actual chassis itself. Sure you can carrayover the design of the chassis. But you wouldn’t carry over the actual race used (as in physically driven on) to make a new car.


no2jedi

That is what James allison has stated. Specifically the concern that the chassis with mileage on has to do another season..


Demiculverin

Maybe I’m wrong. I’ll look into later, that just seems incredible to me if true. Edit: Here is a drone shot taken August 8th https://www.instagram.com/tv/CST_ykqnV3V/?utm_medium=copy_link That there is a W11.


Demiculverin

Here is the W11 in Mercedes HQ, Taken from their Instagram. The W11 absolutely still exists. https://www.instagram.com/reel/CSFIWFhn3s8/?utm_medium=copy_link


no2jedi

So why did James say it doesn't exist... Edit: you didn't even check when they made that video lmao. Check again. They made that car out of the parts they had but it doesn't change the fact they had no w11 at the time james made his comments


Bananapeel23

They will probably rebuild one with their 2021 chassis after the season is over.


lamboman1342

DAS ist cool.


MrPeanutbutter14

Bahrain Circuit Lap Record- 2005 McLaren Imola- Layout changed Algarve- recent addition Barcelona- Layout changed Monaco- Layout changed Baku- New addition Paul Ricard- Layout changed Red Bull Ring- Layout changed Silverstone- Layout changed Hungaoring- 2020 Mercedes Spa- Layout changed Zandvoort- recent entry Monza- 2004 Ferrari Sochi- recent addition Istanbul- 2005 McLaren CotA- recent addition Hermanos- new layout Interlagos- 2018 Mercedes Losail- recent addition Jeddah- recent addition Yas Marina- recent addition The lap records of most tracks that still have the same layout as in 2004 are held by the V10 cars... Admittedly the qualifying times are slower but back then cars had to qualify with full race fuel so that's not a fair comparison. I don't think refuelling matters that much since fastest laps are normally done on fresh tires with low fuel.


iwanturmoney

And they didn't have full slicks back then did they?


MrPeanutbutter14

Yeah, they had grooved tires.


Deltaworkswe

Yeah but there was a tyre war in comparison with the current artificially poor tyres. Would like to see how current Pirellis compare to actually good current ones.


Fun-Ad9829

These tires now aren't poor, they are just not made to last an entire race, which neither were the tires back then because of refueling


gokieks

Race lap record is just as poor of a comparison. The best strategy for winning in modern F1 is almost always to manage the tires to allow for a one-stop race (or the least number of pitstops possible), which means the fastest cars that are in contention for wins usually will not have a chance to pit for fresh tires towards end of the race to set a fast lap on low fuel. And until the re-introduction of the fastest lap extra point, there was zero incentives for them to do so even if they could (i.e. had a free pitstop gap). Even with that FL point, it's still not something that is always feasible.


MrPeanutbutter14

Valterri did his 2021 Bahrain Fastest Lap in the Final Lap with Fresh soft tires to take the fastest lap point. He was still 6 tenths slower than a 2005 McLaren.


gokieks

Bahrain GP was not a night race until 2014. The dramatic difference in track temperature, especially considering that the temperature will keep dropping through the duration of the race (whereas during a normal day race it will only slightly fluctuate unless there is a drastic weather shift) makes a HUGE difference in both how the car performs (especially with regards to tire warmup) and how the car is set up to deal with the changing track temperature conditions. So no, Bahrain 2005 and Bahrain 2021 are not actually comparable. Not to mention the 2020 Mercedes is clearly faster than the 2021 - Lewis's 2021 qualifying fastest lap was 2 seconds slower than his 2020 pole lap (1:29.385 vs 1:27.264).


MrPeanutbutter14

The Bahrain 2005 fastest lap was still 6 tenths faster than the 2020 fastest lap. While de la Rosa was definitely carrying less fuel than Max, he was also on 60 lap old tires which he was having to conserve for another 10 laps. while Max was on fresh tires. Not to mention I’d argue Max is a faster driver too.


gokieks

I'm still not sure what you think this proves. The 2005 race lap record is over 1.5 seconds slower than the 2005 fastest qualifying lap (1:31.447 vs 1:29.848), while the 2020 fastest lap is almost 5 seconds slower than 2020 fastest qualifying lap (1:32.014 vs 1:27.264). Neither race lap time is close to being representative of the maximum performance of the car, the metric by which the 2020 W11 is without a doubt faster*. *: I'd forgotten because F1 had so many weirdo qualifying systems over the years, but for the first 6 races of 2005 qualifying was a 2-day aggregate, with refueling allowed between the two, which means the 1:29.848 (which was set during Saturday) was in fact on low fuel.


MrPeanutbutter14

Yes but seeing as Fernando had to use the same tires for another 70 laps he probably wasn’t going max pace. (In 2005 you had to use the same tires for all qualifying sessions AND the entire race). He obviously was conserving tires and not pushing the car as much as he could in qualifying. (Also if I remember correctly Fernando completely messed up a corner in his qualifying lap which probably cost him like a second. What’s more he didn’t even have a tow, which probably cost him another second)


MrPeanutbutter14

Would take make that big of a difference ? I guess we'll have to wait till next sunday and the Turkish GP for a true 1 to 1 comparison between a V10 and a 2021 car, hopefully someone ends up doing a late attempt for the lap record. I wouldn't be surprised if either Valterri or Checo is forced to do one to deny either Max or Lewis a championship point.


Spinodontosaurus

Temperature is quite important but in this case the cooler night temperatures of post-2014 Bahrain would be beneficial, *especially* compared to 2005 which was the hottest race in the history of the sport with an air temperature of over 42 degrees celsius. Drivers were also restricted to a single set of tyres for the whole race distance in 2005. Also while the official race lap record at Bahrain is held by de la Rosa from 2005, the 2004 lap record was actually considerably faster (by 1.2 seconds) but it doesn't count because the layout (or rather just Turn 4) was changed for 2005 and beyond, with the 2004 layout technically being slower. 2004 did benefit from having brand new very grippy tarmac to drive on though.


Hinyaldee

The other difference would be in the engines too. They had more engines per season in 2004 and in 2020/1 having to keep 3 engines for 17+ rsces means you can't run them as high as they used to


TheScapeQuest

Istanbul hasn't been raced in dry conditions since before the 2017 high aero era though.


Imaginary_Ad_4050

Why was the W11 so dominant over every other car though? Assuming DAS helped but not this much


krishal_743

Best pu , lots of wind tunel time due to mercs deep pockets and a capable engineering with an effectively infinite budget and the arguable g.o.a.t of the sport driving it


chriscolum

I'm not entirely sure but I would imagine a combination of the engine, crazy downforce, and high-speed corner performance. Seeing Lewis just chuck the thing into corners was always awesome to watch for me.


Deltaworkswe

Much also had to do with the rear suspension which concept red bull switched to this year with their development token. Made the car rotate much better in slow corners. Mercs had always had the advantage in the high speed stuff and Redbull in the slow speed since the beginning of the hybrid era. With the different suspension points the 2020 Merc was suddenly just better everywhere.


NHRADeuce

Do you same comparison with fastest race lap, us there any difference?


DragonfruitSubject

2019 definitely, nice top speed and faster in corners


KeashinX

2020 cars are just 2019 2.0


ALovingFeeling_

The W11 may be the fastest racecar we see for decades, strange to think about


MrPeanutbutter14

It's not like most of the lap records are held by the v10 cars or anything... Oh wait


chukfakma

Let's not forget, Hamilton is just as dominant as the W11. I'm no Hamilton fanboy but it must be said how insanely close to the limits he pushes the car with unrealistic consistency.


TotalStatisticNoob

How was the 2018 Ferrari quicker than the 2019 one in Monza


willmcavoy

about that..


TheDeamonMeteor

WOAH! KIMI POLE!! NAJRBJSBTUSBRJSNVRJSVRUS


NatMicha

Thanks for putting this together! Very interesting to see


zamlatuljko

Imho f2004 with some of develomoment will destoroy this cars.


jvstinf

The W11 with unrestricted fuel flow and an engine that needed to only last one race would lay waste to any car F1 ever made. Let's not go down that path.


laundrysauce9000

That car would be so fast that it would alter the Earth rotation as it goes round a track


darth-fate

That sounds like something Clarkson would say in his review.


Wentzina_lifetime

Full active aero with the wing sliding into the body on the straights


lil_babumon

“If Once You Start Down The Dark Path, Forever Will It Dominate Your Destiny.”


[deleted]

[удалено]


iloverubicon

His post was facetious as the person before did the same....


tj1721

Well yeah, but then it wouldn’t be the f2004. It would be a different car. You can change the tyres and the engine and the aero etc. But then it is a different car from a fundamentally different set of regulations.


MrPeanutbutter14

Put on slicks it would destroy it. Heck, let it run a lap with low fuel, it might still win. (Back in 04, cars had to qualify with full race fuel)


NoxZ

It really wouldn't. Maybe at Monza. Not anywhere with actual corners.


tj1721

As I already said changing to slicks would change the formula, so it would no longer be the F2004. It’s a bit like saying stick a huge V10 in the back of the Mercedes, sure it would probably be quicker, but it’s now a different car. On the fuel thing I’m not so sure that the modern F1 car would be destroyed. Look at Spain as an example: the F2004 set a fastest quali lap of 1.15.002, the 2019 Merc set a 1.15.406. Except that between 06-07 the final chicane was introduced, which increased lap times by about 6s. If you therefore make the simplification that the Merc could go 6s quicker (which probably isn’t quite true but can’t be too bad an approximation), then the mercedes does a 1.09.4, 5.6 seconds quicker than the Ferrari. Schumacher’s opening stint of the race was 10 laps which means the fuel had to be costing him 0.56s a lap to account for the quali difference, this definitely isn’t true - as an aside I think you qualified on your starting fuel load not on your full race fuel road, right? (even if it is full race that still requires a cost of 0.084s per lap, which based off of online figures seems a little high).


MrPeanutbutter14

I think for a comparison like this, tires should be equalized. It wouldn't be fair to compare the lap-times of a car on hards with a car on super softs would it ?


tj1721

It depends what you mean, it’s a completely valid comparison, but obviously the harder tyre is probably not going to be representative of the maximum time possible within the regulations. That is subtly different though. You could make the argument for putting the cars on the quickest tyres from the formula at the time the car was driven, but that is still part of the formula. Switching to tyres from a different era is, at least imo, pushing the boundaries too far. Mainly because the tyres are part of the regulations, but also because you could start making arguments like, yeah but x car wasn’t designed for y tyres or x car would have been designed differently if it had been designed at y time.


CardinalNYC

>I think for a comparison like this, tires should be equalized. It wouldn't be fair to compare the lap-times of a car on hards with a car on super softs would it ? The tires are integrated into the design of any F1 car. You can't separate that and have it still be the same car. An f2004 on slicks is no longer the f2004.


MarTimator

Merc should do what Porsche did with the 919 and make the W11 even faster


LordBeibi

Just fitting some non grooved tires will likely get you most of the way there.


Bleeted

I honestly would love to see a f2004 with current soft Pirelli rubber doing some qualifying laps.


kgtomov

Seriously doubt it will be drivable in anyway. F2004 was perfected to that very millimeter, which includes the tire sizes, pressure and grooves. The whole aero package wouldn't work the way it worked. I'm not sure it would even take a corner with the current tires.


F15hface

Given that Alonso tested the Renault R25 at Abu Dhabi last year on modern slicks in the correct size,and was only a few seconds behind current cars, I doubt the F2004 is so aero sensitive it would fail to take a corner on slicks in the correct size.


AtomZaepfchen

god seeing that v10 and the reaction out of hamilton just gave me goosebumps. v10 f1s are just a beauty.


Montjo17

The R25 (and MP4-20 even moreso) is also a faster car than the F2004 because the only difference between 2004 and 2005 was the introduction of much worse tires. Without those the F2004 no longer looks quite so ridiculously fast


kgtomov

Well I both agree on that and dissagree on that. I've may had exaggerate with the not taking a corner, but simply removing the grooves would not simply make wonder. McLaren were "few seconds" behind and took them years to rebuild. I was pointing out that simply removing the groves wouldn't make such a difference, cause the current gen cars get far more grip by tires and aero, and we can't really compare them. Weight, size, anything. It's like saying your Fiat Panda will suddenly start doing 160 km/h if you fit it with slicks. Granted, what Alonso driven in Abu Dhabi was some museum car and if it was still developed it can get closer to the top times. Still both R25 and F2014 were developed with grooves and specific tire width/height in mind.


eirexe

Also, despite grooved tires being grooved, they were made to be much softer than what we have now afaik.


basementspam

could you please explain further? not saying you are wrong, but i wonder how you come to this opinion?


kgtomov

If we simply ignore the groves, the very tire width would seriously mess the whole wind flow around the the front tires and then back the car. Back then the tires were 270 mm (then going down even further to 245 mm) and now we are on 305 mm. 35 mm of width may sound something marginally funny and small biggie, but I doubt that the aero package would had worked as it worked 17 years back. The whole air flow will be marginally different and the car would drive as on ice. Edit: A little addition - just look how marginally the front wings had changed the last couple of years when we get the "fat" tires. Teams going that further that when they've introduced their new cars, no one knew which one would gonna work (the old styled front style or the new with the flaps going down next to the wing end, to create outwash from the tires). 10 mm here or there can make quite some difference.


basementspam

thank you sir. actually not have an answer to that, difficult to tell. it's hard to compare cars over different regulations. 2004 ferrari or 2020 mercedes, both were monsters, loved / hated them both.


kgtomov

To whoever gilded my for this. Thank you kind sir! This is my first one for 6 years in this sub and reddit. Trulli made my Saturday!


imJoKaRr

Oh I see what you did there


kgtomov

I thought someone will notice it sooner. Guess Trulli trains only goes in Sundays :D


Rosmarino-fresco

The f2004 still has the fastest lap in monza (race lap)


maxverchilton

And the W11 with refuelling and more durable tyres would destroy the F2004 by even more. There’s been 15 years of development since then, the only reason why the cars aren’t much faster is because they don’t need to be, frankly, so regulations to slow the cars down and improve the racing are only a good thing for the sport.


Ok_Raccoon_8052

> There’s been 15 years of development since then, Rule changes ffs. They went with groves to slow cars down.


maxverchilton

I’m sorry, not sure what you’re trying to say? They went back to slicks in 2009, but at the same time brought in the simplified aero, so in actuality the cars got slower compared to the previous year. But whenever rules get brought in to peg the cars back it’s not long until the designers manage to claw it back. Just look at the difference between the bargeboards from 2004 to 2021, they’re on a whole other level. They just didn’t have the technology back then to develop such complex components.


Eoooiny

Lol such a bit assumption with no evidence whatsoever


bwoahconstricter

What does that even mean? Then 2020 cars with some development would destroy those cars.


idontkno23

If you put development and removed some restrictions like bendy wings and higher rpm the W11 would cook any car ever developed


Ok_Raccoon_8052

Put slicks on any grooved tired car and your shit box will remain a shit box


ldhd44

actually f2004 is perfectly mediocre. Its aero is not as advanced as modern aero and its engine is not as powerful as single-serve engines of the 80s. One standout for me is FW10 because oh look one thing is not like the others https://www.statsf1.com/en/statistiques/pilote/divers/qualification.aspx


NoHypef1

This “mediocre” F2004 is still the fastest F1 in history. It’s not even close. No points are scored in qualifying remember. The F2004 is minutes faster for total race time than the W11.


maxverchilton

That’s only because of the raceday format rather than the car itself. Back in 2004 there was refuelling and a tyre war going on, so it could afford to drive qualifying laps all Sunday afternoon. In terms of the inherent car pace the W11 has a pretty decent advantage over the F2004. On the same topic, the idea of lap records only counting from the race is something I don’t understand, they should just be the outright fastest lap any car running to the relevant regulations is able to achieve at the circuit, whatever day it’s set.


NoHypef1

None of this changes the fact that the F2004 is the fastest car in F1 history in actual point scoring events. Regulations come and go. The only reason the W11 is faster in qualifying is regulations. Just because regulations were different doesn’t mean it isn’t the faster car in a race.


maxverchilton

The ‘points scoring events’ part is completely irrelevant. If anything qualifying pace is the better comparison given that it’s format has changed less than the race. All things being equal, the W11, that is purely the piece of hardware, is faster than the F2004. Take one of each to Silverstone, fill them with the same amount of fuel and sit the same driver in each, and the W11 will be faster. The difference in race lap time has nothing to do with the equipment itself, it’s capable of much more, it’s just that modern F1 cars are operating at less than its potential compared to 15 years ago. If the FIA brought in regulations next year to say at the end of each lap the driver had to get out and polish the wing mirrors, that would mean a 2004 Ford Focus would set a faster race lap time, but that doesn’t make it a faster car.


SirLoremIpsum

> The only reason the W11 is faster in qualifying is regulations. Doesn't that go both ways though? The only reason the F2004 is faster in race trim is regulations. > Just because regulations were different doesn’t mean it isn’t the faster car in a race. How does it not though? The "engine must last xx" races + refuelling is a huge change that artificially makes one quicker than the other. In the exact same way that 'must qualify on fuel load that you'll start with' makes qualifying artifically different for some years.


ldhd44

you need to take a look at F1 regulations. Cause i'm gonna save this post and if I see you arguing with people about F1 again i'm gonna link them to this post.


NoHypef1

Regulations come and go in F1. The F2004 is the fastest car ever in point scoring f1 events. This is a fact.


HELLUPUTMETHRU

I mean hell, just look at Monza. I’m like 99% certain Reubens Barrichello still holds the lap record there in the F2004


ldhd44

modern cars are like 1.5 seconds faster in Monza


eirexe

In qualifying The monza lap record (which means it was done during a race) is still held by barrichello


Ok_Raccoon_8052

So thats why the record is 1:21.046 set by Barrichello? Please explain cause this is causing a Short circuit in my brain


akddw

Is it a fact? If you put the F2004 into a race full of 2020 Mercs it would build a massive lead at the start of the race. One safety car and all that gap is gone and that lead doesn't matter anymore. There will be a crossover point where the 2020 Mercs can run the rest of the race faster than the F2004 can and it would finish last.


zamlatuljko

Yes but whole package is monster car


ldhd44

it's probably the most technologically advanced car compared to human capabilities at the time, but on the overall timeline it's a compromise.


Freeze014

I would say the most technologically advanced car was the FW15C.


HELLUPUTMETHRU

Was that the one with active suspension? Or was that in the 14?


MaestroZezinho

Both had it


HELLUPUTMETHRU

Thanks for clarifying! For some reason I was thinking the 14 had it and that tech being gone by the 15. It’s a few years before my time and I definitely don’t have a Seb level of older F1 knowledge haha


MaestroZezinho

You're welcome! 1993 was the first season I watched most of the races, but as a 6/7 years old I don't have many memories from that, most of my knowledge is from Wikipedia. What I remember is that it was very impressive how Prost, known to only drive as fast as needed, would disappear on the front on dry races on all kinds of circuits, as Williams not only had the most advanced car, it also had the best engine.


CardinalNYC

>Imho f2004 with some of develomoment will destoroy this cars. I mean... Theoretically sure... But that's really not the question at hand, is it? It is the car it is, not the car it could be if you added more stuff. Any car could be quicker with more development.


22-Faces

F2004 with slicks would probably destroy even the W11, car was so quick in testing it surprised even Ferrari.


Death_by_boring

Except aerodynamics.


22-Faces

Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines.


KeashinX

*2020 Ferrari enters the chat


22-Faces

Oh they can build engines alright, they just were showing their disagreement with the fuel flow limit regulation in 2019 so of course the FIA spanked them.


vikumwijekoon97

An unrestricted W11 would be absolute insanity. Stickiest tyres pirelli have, unrestricted engine that can probably easily do 2000 even 3000hp, unrestricted aero with low fuel, Oh my.


[deleted]

The Mercedes is made even faster by the great driver they have piloting it. 🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆


Snappy0

Bottas is a good qualifier that is true.


cpt_Fordo

Max would be 2 tenths faster according to himself :D Anyway you can calm down, in 2019 when Leclerc had a car which was good enough to beat the Merc in qualifying, he had the most poles out of any driver and this season Verstappen has the most poles so far, but the cars are slower now so he is unable to beat these lap records.


Ok-Winter-737

> Anyway you can calm down Lol, are you okay?


MaxHammerTime

what a pointless comment


ErwinRommelEz

Prime Schumacher or prime Hamilton I know which I would choose


candidarchitect

The 2020 Merc in Vietnam would be crap though.


Key_Refrigerator5985

Why??? Vietnam has nothing these tracks doesn't have. A long ass straight? Sure... Then look at the middle section of the track. Perfect for the W11 insane mechanical grip. And it's not like the W11 isn't a straightline speed demon either. They were almost 1 second faster than any other car on Monza and they didn't even had a tow and Monza is the track where you need the least downforce.


candidarchitect

Its not the straights, it's the hard braking zones.


LordVile95

Most of the tracks have been changed so it’s kinda impossible to tell


stin24

Didn’t they tweak the turn into sector three coming out of the backstretch for Spain in 2020? That might have added some time to the lap.


MonochromeDog

,z,, k